Post by Admin on Jan 6, 2014 3:45:52 GMT
Carbon Tax moving to Grassroot Power to Global Warming Debate
By Rick Maltese on Sunday, January 5, 2014 at 10:15pm
I wonder if we could advocate a carbon tax as a way to replace government spending. We know that government spending is unpopular. We also know the government gives too much subsidy to wind and solar and indirectly favors natural gas in the process. I have not been a big supporter of a carbon tax but it seems to me that more people might support it if they saw that it would make the playing field more fair.
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Virgil Fenn and Dan Brookshear like this.
Karen Street: Every major report out of the communities that begin with peer review advocate adding a steep cost to GHG emissions, and trashing essentially all subsidies. I would stay out of the tax vs cap and trade vs fee fight, and the fight over where the money goes.
If you don't know why the uber reports advocate this, perhaps this is a good month for reading!
January 2 at 3:28pm · Like · 1
Eric Schmitz: Unpopular in some circles, not so unpopular others. It gets better reviews when it's referred to as "public investment." I don't have blanket support or opposition to spending -- I like my interstates, but don't care much for prohibition. But then one of those is a real investment, while the other is just spending. (IMHO)
I'm mixed on a carbon tax, but that may be because cap-and-trade never impressed me as any kind of solution. If a tax is used, the revenues really should be targeted, as I *think* you are suggesting for consideration. If we're going to have a stick (tax), then there should also be a carrot (responsible investment). And a subsidy cannot be allowed to turn into perpetual life-support.
January 2 at 3:40pm · Like
Eric Schmitz That is, the *disbursement of the revenues should be targeted.
January 2 at 3:40pm · Like
Mare Britton Tiido: carbon tax on what specifically?
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January 2 at 3:50pm via · Like
Leslie Corrice: Carbon Tax makes my blood boil. In the end, it gives the fossil-fuel polluters a way to keep belching their crap into our life-sphere. How about a fossil-fuel moratorium until they can meet the emission levels of nukes? Or am I confusing the issue?
January 2 at 4:00pm · Like · 5
Eric Schmitz That's kind of what I thought, Les. (And I say that as a progressive who is not categorically opposed to taxation and spending.) Cap-and-trade even more so -- it's a non-solution. Carbon tax is somewhat different, but the industry will still just pass the cost along to ratepayers, and the blame back to the government. Even this left-leaner thinks there are probably much better ways to naturally make nuclear cheaper, than to make fossil artificially more expensive. Not fully convinced either way, but I'm dubious.
January 2 at 4:11pm · Like · 3
Christopher C Bergan If the tax is high enough, yes it will dramatically reduce emissions. But then there will be little CO2 to tax and the govt will be in deeper debt (from reduced income). That's what happened with cigarette/cigar taxes anyway.
January 2 at 4:11pm · Like · 1
Mare Britton Tiido It is really like giving a license to pollute -- if you can afford to pay for it.
January 2 at 4:18pm · Like · 1
Eric Hanson Carbon taxes had a lot to do with the Australian government falling. Tread carefully.
January 2 at 4:20pm · Like · 2
Karen Street Stay out of the tax vs cap and trade vs fee argument. If you look at all major analyses from the communities that begin with peer review, they begin with assumptions on what cost has been added to GHG. Les, yes, you could call it pay to pollute or pay too much and shift sources and pollute less.
Again, lots of announcements, you might want to start with the communities that begin with peer review and see what they say and why.
In reality, electricity will not be the only sector affected.
January 2 at 4:53pm · Like
Steve Aplin well, governments are (like all of us) addicted to revenue. If we were to tie government revenues to carbon emissions, the incentive would be to maximize carbon emissions!
That would be bad for both nuclear advocacy and the atmospheric thermodynamics.
January 2 at 5:10pm via · Like · 2
Karen Street Yep, the inevitable result of a steep cost on GHG emissions is increasing GHG emissions. Just the opposite of what I learned in econ, but hey...
January 2 at 5:13pm · Like
Eric Hanson Here is a Forbes article on the realities of a carbon tax in the USA. It makes the point that even if the USA adopts a carbon tax or some other method of adding a cost to carbon, then coal from the USA will simply to exported and burned someplace else. The effect? Sabotage the US economy with no environmental benefit.
Low carbon power, be it nuclear or whatever, has to be made genuinely cheaper than high carbon power. Artificially making high carbon power more expensive will not do as carbon taxes etc. will not be made same from one country to the next.
I see no public apatite for what amounts to a money grab in aid of trivial environmental benefits.
"A recent Congressional Budget Office (CBO) analysis, “Effects of a Carbon Tax on the Economy and the Environment” may include a clue. The report is pretty much boilerplate except for where it departs into a specific section on the implementation of the tax on coal producers:
“…analysts suggest that because the bulk of coal is used to generate electricity, emissions resulting from coal could be covered by taxing electricity generators on the basis of their actual emissions”.
Whose analysts?
Taxing coal at the point of electricity generation will be a decreasing expense to the industry (since EPA has pretty much outlawed any new coal-fired power plants), more than made up for by the bonanza of tax-free coal “leaking” from the highly-regulated U.S. to ports around the world."
www.forbes.com/.../the-carbon-tax-washingtons.../
The Carbon Tax: Washington's Latest Bad Idea, Oddly Shepherded By Republicans
www.forbes.com
In D.C., bad ideas are never in short supply.
January 2 at 5:23pm · Like · 2 · Remove Preview
Karen Street Is this a major report from the communities that begin with peer review or a hack talking outside his field of expertise, paid to talk outside his field of expertise by fossil fuel interests?
Hint: people who get their information from hacks paid by the fossil fuel industries to say stuff that does not overlap with analysis from the communities that begin with peer review are not friends of nuclear power. Again, not rocket science.
January 2 at 5:28pm · Like
Eric Hanson Nor is it rocket science to understand that if the use of coal is made artificially expensive in the USA, it will simply be burned somewhere else. What part of this do you not understand?
January 2 at 5:34pm · Like
Karen Street There either will be international agreements to do same everywhere, or at least in all countries where a majority make >$2/day, or there will be a few countries charging a tax at the border and taking advantage of that tax for their own national budget. Eric, do you really think that Michaels has brilliant thoughts tens of thousands of PhDs in the field failed to consider?
Even with all those great $$ff rolling in? $$$$ from the ff people helps the ticker to really understand the issues.
January 2 at 5:41pm · Like
Eric Hanson Michaels is a climatologist and what is your justification for calling him a "hack" who is "paid to talk outside his field of expertise by fossil fuel interests"?
"Patrick J. ("Pat") Michaels (born February 15, 1950) is an American climatologist. Michaels is a senior research fellow for Research and Economic Development at George Mason University,[1] and a senior fellow in environmental studies at the Cato Institute. Until 2007 he was research professor of environmental sciences at the University of Virginia, where he had worked from 1980.[2]
A self-described skeptic on the issue of global warming, he is a past president of the American Association of State Climatologists.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Michaels
Patrick Michaels - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org
Patrick J. ("Pat") Michaels (born February 15, 1950) is an American climatologis...See More
January 2 at 5:56pm · Edited · Like · Remove Preview
Karen Street Michaels was not a climatologist, he studied the effect of climate on ag. More than that he is not an important part of the economics community that begins with peer review, he does not characterize for our benefit what they say, and yet you link to him based on his economics expertise. Rick your FB page will be worth nothing if you allow climate denial, or economic analysis by climate deniers. Not to mention how embarrassing it is to be on a page where people link to climate deniers. Despite all of Michaels $$ff, he is not an expert. And really, people who do presentations at groups that tell birther jokes? He doesn't even take himself seriously. $$ff $$ff $$ff Do we really want the $$ff analysis to interfere with discussion?
January 2 at 6:02pm · Like
Eric Hanson Karen,Michaels' wikipedia page clearly states that he is a climatologist.
“Patrick Michaels obtained an A.B. in biological science in 1971 and an S.M. in biology in 1975 from the University of Chicago, and in 1979 obtained his Ph.D. in ecological climatology from the University of Wisconsin-Madison His doctoral thesis was titled, Atmospheric anomalies and crop yields in North America.”
So please retract your statement about him not being a climatologist.
January 2 at 6:11pm · Like
Karen Street Far be it from me to argue with Wikipedia which says that his study was in biology and he wrote, "Atmospheric anomalies and crop yields in North America.” Can't argue there, I must have been totally wrong that his expertise is the effect of climate on ag,
OK, am leaving until/if this discussion becomes more serious. Either that or I come back with my own farm expert to opine on economic policy, although without the $$ff.
January 2 at 6:17pm · Like
Eric Hanson Tell me something Karen. How can a guy with a Ph.D in Ecological Climatology NOT be considered a climatologist? Do you get to decide who is and who isn't a climatologist?
January 2 at 6:21pm · Like
Karen Street Wow, I guess he is a climatologist, because his degree has climatology in the name. Does that make him an expert in anything besides the effect of climate on ag? and other plants presumably. Does his ability to sniff out $$ff make him an economics expert? If you win the point that people whose expertise is not in paleo or etc or etc or etc but the effects of climate change on ag are also climatologists, what point have you won exactly?
January 2 at 7:28pm · Like
Mare Britton Tiido I have not researched any of this, but the idea that someone cannot broaden his knowledge and know just as much as someone with a degree in that specific field is not beyond the realm of possibiity, especially if that person is a specialist in another related field.
January 2 at 8:32pm · Like · 2
Eric Hanson Karen, this FB page is about energy. Climate is a tangential issue. Once again you are attempting to hijack a FB page for your own agenda and have advocated censorship.
In other silliness, you made a statement above about international agreements on emissions. How has that worked out so far? I hear the Chinese have been particularly cooperative.
It is preposterous to think that binding, meaningful international agreements on CO2 emissions that will actually be respected are going to happen when there hasn't been any warming since 1998, there has been no increase in extreme weather, and the climate models have failed.
www.cato.org/.../peer-reviewed-or-not-ipcc-accepts...
Peer-reviewed or Not, the IPCC Accepts Our Conclusion
www.cato.org
Three years after our finding was rejected by the scientific literature, the res...See More
January 2 at 8:57pm · Like · 2 · Remove Preview
Cheryl Rofer The argument (from Rick, up top) that a carbon tax would "replace government spending" doesn't make sense. For that matter, the whole argument that government spending is bad doesn't make sense. Do you think that the government should field a military? Do you like roads? Schools? Clean water? And a host of other things. If you do, then you should be glad that the people have voted to fund them. And you should be glad to pay your share. There's no free lunch.
The government is us. We vote in our representatives. We make up the school boards and county councils. If you don't like what the government is doing, get active politically. Don't just sit around and whine.
Would a carbon tax bring in more money? You bet. One of the things that might be discussed is where that money should go. Right now, our Congress is starving the economy. So more money would be a good thing in lots of places. Young people are graduating from college today with unconscionable loads of debt because the no-tax people have forced state legislatures to cut back on funding education.
Or how about all that research for nuclear that the private sector has amply shown it's not going to do? The big advances in nuclear power were made in the 1950s and 1960s, funded by the government.
Or another moon shot?
Lots of good things we can do if we get off this fantasy that government spending is bad, and yes, we can have a free lunch.
January 3 at 10:07am · Like
Gene Herron "We also know the government gives too much subsidy to wind and solar and indirectly favors natural gas in the process. I have not been a big supporter of a carbon tax but it seems to me that more people might support it if they saw that it would make the playing field more fair."
So rather than making energy abundant and clean you want to make the poor poorer, the richer poorer, give the Government more money to squander on wars, Regulatory non-sense and other useless crap?
How about we just get the newer cleaner energy dense technologies online and let the consumers decide as petroleum becomes more expensive, Natural Gas prices becomes volatile as people use more of it and so on?
January 3 at 5:47pm · Edited · Like · 1
Gene Herron It's good to discuss options and to dismiss rotten options.
To me a carbon tax is only slightly better morally than giving Billionaires a new subsidy - letting them speculate on carbon futures.
January 3 at 5:48pm · Edited · Like · 1
Rick Maltese Glad to see thoughtful comments from several people. The one nagging truth is that we need to reform the NRC but I am sure there are other things we need to do first. Any ideas?
January 3 at 6:16pm via mobile · Like · 1
Gene Herron "The government is us. We vote in our representatives. We make up the school boards and county councils. If you don't like what the government is doing, get active politically. Don't just sit around and whine."
The Presidential Election of 2000 and the Washington Governors race of 2003 are examples of a fact - the Government is NOT US.
The Government is OF US and OVER US.
Government spending is neither good nor bad. Government spending is necessary and ought to be based upon necessity and not "This is a neat idea, let's try it".
January 3 at 7:26pm · Edited · Like · 2
Cheryl Rofer Good excuse for sitting back and whining, Gene!
January 3 at 7:54pm · Like
Gene Herron Knowing one's limitations, Cheryl, enables one to take effective action. Effective meaning that you get the best return on your effort.
To me demonstrations, candle light vigils, and histrionics don't work as well as joining Interest groups who hire lobbyists - since Congress is for sale - and targeting your buying to agreeable outfits, since money talks louder than words.
Hardly doing "nothing" but not squandering time on gestures. I do vote but more to look at the Bond Issues and to help out good local candidates. I consider most politicians on the local level to be reasonable people. I consider most of the politicians in DC to be deceptive, indifferent and self indulgent. Some politicos in the urban areas are to me almost oppressive.
January 3 at 7:59pm · Edited · Unlike · 3
Mare Britton Tiido the democractic process is underutilized. If society were a person, then the side that is overactive would be called capitalism, the one that is paralyzed would be democracy. People need to be informed of issues and the political process -- learn how to lobby, send letters to editors and local representatives etc. until things reach critical mass. This works.
January 3 at 8:13pm · Unlike · 2
Mare Britton Tiido communication and education are the means to political change.
January 3 at 8:13pm · Unlike · 2
Mare Britton Tiido Candle light vigils however work better than angry mobs who spew conspiracy theories without a clue to what they are talking about. But in a large established democracy like US, definitely lobbying, specific targeting of news editors etc....can lead to sudden awakening of media making new angles and topics timely, which spreads and affects politicians et al.
January 3 at 8:17pm · Like · 1
Gene Herron " the democractic process is underutilized. If society were a person, then the side that is overactive would be called capitalism, the one that is paralyzed would be democracy."
I tend to think that "capitalism" is under utilized because the US has been crony capitalist since the Great Depression. Our "Business Leaders" do not like capitalism and stifle it by Regulatory Capture (example - how many FDA managers were once and will be in the employ of drug and ag business companies) and through special legislation that favors them with tax breaks (example - GE not paying taxes for how many years?). At one time or another someone has said, "The folks who are most opposed to capitalism are the managers of large businesses".
Even Organized Labor today are businesses. The UAW, for example, owns GM today. They also own part of Chysler, at least until it is sold off to the Italian Government (Fiat). This takeover was engineered in the White House, and in the process shafted Union pension funds - of unions other than the UAW.
Mike Dukakis called it "partnerships between Government and Business". Mussolini called it fascism and then lied about the trains running on time. If you disagreed he gave you castor oil. Mike just dismissed you, as did his friends - on both sides of the aisle. The GOP are often fascist in thought.
The purest form of capitalism in the US is the underground drug market. Please note how the Government persecutes it.
Most people only act when the pain of doing nothing exceeds the cost of educating themselves and changing the minds of others. Most people are well fed, complacent and if not happy at least satisfied. I think it was observed in the Eastern Bloc that they only saw riots when people went hungry.
You work with what you have in front of you while you at least try to persuade others.
I am not being cynical... except about candle light vigils or putting on a uniform, going into the woods and pretending to be a soldier. Or going to online ideological echo chambers....
Better to learn something new....
January 3 at 9:05pm · Edited · Like · 1
Gene Herron "communication and education are the means to political change."
True. Both are challenged by "conventional wisdom" and the annoying tendency of people to want "sound bites".
The issue I have with a "sound bite" is that at best it is a reinforcement of a previously held opinion. It's a form of "zinging", which is apropos for children.
Changing one's point of view is challenging, often caused by "aha!" moments.
Just imagine the aggravation some would feel if they read my remarks about "The purest form of capitalism in the US is in the underground drug markets" or "the US has been crony capitalist since 1933". Aggravation tends to make people confirm their own biases.
People have to be willing to change their own points of view before you can educate them.
January 3 at 8:55pm · Edited · Like · 2
Mare Britton Tiido there is a lot about history you don't know. The eastern bloc, baltic countries etc. And the campaigns to media editors that have indeed brought about important changes -- of little importance perhaps to American born. But you know about history from other perspectives. You are using the word capitalism in a different way. One can use words to mean different things depending on context. The managers of large businesses..may be so, but those who sit on heaps of money in West have made their original headway mostly through capitalistic means, not through military or totalitarian. But the way in which things have grown..that is another huge complex topic...bottom line -- the gap between rich and poor, the decayed education system, pollution of air and water...and the general squeezing of the middle class. But nothing is black and white. And I think those who think they know so much, based on little experience or investigation,are simply wrong most of the time, as they think in big sweeps, black and white etc. It is so easy for them to arrive at conclusions. (I am not casting aspersions on you here...as i have only glimpsed your views.) They forget too that the human race is flawed.
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January 3 at 10:42pm via · Like · 1
Mare Britton Tiido Sound bytes are stuff of TV and online news, but good editorials and books are still being printed and are influential if read by reform-minded. NYT last year printed an article about how China, despite the unheathy reach of a totalitarian govt, has demonstrated admiral skills in bringing millions -- about 80 million -- into an improved standard of living, in their realization that they cannot have a great economy unless they eradicate hunger and provide education to as many people as possible. Then the writer points to India, the world's biggest democracy, where only a sliver of the population have benefitted through new industry and jobs in high tech and pharma. That was a watershed article I believe, as it posed a challenge to India who has prided itself on a modernization (westernization) that leaves most of the country untouched and in appalling conditions. Since that article, I've seen a trickle of stories by media, inc. NYT, on anti-povertyand social improvement start ups in India.
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January 3 at 11:54pm via · Unlike · 1
Rick Maltese I was stirring up trouble with this one I see. Did not realize carbon tax was such a hot issue. But we can't just sit back and do nothing about the governments "all of the above approach" to energy. That is the real problem. That, and treating the fossil fuels (i.e.natural gas and coal) with more lenience than nuclear. It has forced the closing of Kewaunee Nuclear Plant and will probably affect others too My aim of asking the question was to get people to think about the issue. I have no simple answers. I started up deregulate the atom as a attention grabber. Again I was trying to raise awareness about the unfair treatment of the nuclear industry compared to the others. I certainly never intended for anyone to think I wanted to fully deregulate nuclear plants.
Yesterday at 12:02am · Edited · Like · 2
Gene Herron " but those who sit on heaps of money in West have made their original headway mostly through capitalistic means, not through military or totalitarian. "
I cannot speak for other nations. The US monied interests have made most of their money from warfare since 1900. Hardly "Capitalism" based upon healthy competition, more crony capitalism.
The US got into World War 1 because Morgan lent the British 6 billion dollars. He wanted his money back. If Britain lost no repayment. Wilson went along because all of his supporters were friends of Morgan.
The Entente invasion of Russia was most certainly about money. Not capitalism, but securing Russian war supplies from the Germans.
Between the Wars Congressional Medal of Honor Winner Lewis Puller wrote a book called "War is a racket". He said, "I was just a bag man for Wall Street". General Puller was decorated twice with the US Congressional Medal of Honor.
World War 2 began in part because US monied interests invested in both Hitler and the Japanese Zaibatsu. They then profited heavily from "war profits" when their "investments" got busy in Asia. Easy to do after Pearl Harbor ended "Isolationism".
The US Government was quite generous with tax breaks and "war bond" monies... right into the pockets of the super rich.
Korea began as a mistake by the Truman Administration, which baited Kim and Soviets to invade. Dean Atcheson's "We have no interest in the affairs of the Koreas". This ended the post war recession.
The Cold War began to "save the US defense industry".
The Pentagon Papers clearly showed why the US went to Vietnam. Follow the money to see how many helicopters were lost in SE Asia, among other war materiel.
The US invasions in the Middle East benefited rich investors.
Before you raise a hand about "eastern Europe" mind telling me who benefited in the Eastern Bloc - the site of the purest State Capitalism on Earth - from the Soviet bloc's rampant paranoia? The Party lived like lords while the average Soviet citizen dreamed of their own houses in the city and flush toilets in the countryside. Do you believe that the USSR "helped" South Africans out of the goodness of their hearts, or to raise the prices for Soviet chromium and gold?
Capitalism? Please! Capitalism gets blamed but its really the State and it's "partners" who benefit....
Yesterday at 12:06am · Edited · Like · 1
Gene Herron "That, and treating the fossil fuels (i.e.natural gas and coal) with more lenience than nuclear"
Rick - if Nuclear energy was a subculture of people with voting rights politicians would award it affirmative action due to "past oppression".
Nuclear energy has been the subject of grotesque bigotry, completely vile.
Hyman Rickover showed the PROPER way to run a nuke operation - Do you homework, learn the fundamentals, document and consistently run things. The US Navy had minimal trouble, no K-129s on our subs.
The average non technical American thinks that Homer Simpson is the typical nuke worker. The typical nuke worker I have met is more like Winston Wolfe in "Pulp Fiction" - Quiet, competent, no non-sense. At all.
Taxing coal and oil won't end this nonsense.... it'll just make Luddite energy more attractive.
What is needed in my view is to educate people on the benefits of nuclear energy. Especially newer technologies that are resilient against Fukushimas and Chernobyls... so that they are as reliable as the ascent stage of the Apollo lander.
Yesterday at 12:19am · Edited · Like · 1
Rick Maltese It would be nice if government spending and taxing had some kind of karmic balancing act taking place. My half baked proposals point out that knowing the issues is important. Gene and Mare both make good points. Understanding how much of the people's wishes (or for that matter their complacency) affect decision making and how much are from lobbyists is a significant question. If you can't beat 'em join 'em may be the motto that we need to most directly affect change. Maybe we need to become lobbyists.
Yesterday at 12:33am · Edited · Like · 1
Mare Britton Tiido Gene, I am not blaming capitalism. I just feel that democracy is needed to manage capitalism...and democracy is underutilized in this way. Capitalism needs a good cleaning. The Stock market and shorting, now an engine to enable unbridled greed, so the top of the heap takes 90 per cent, while affluent get some, and rest get none. So much unbridled greed. I do acknowledge that most of the people who point their finger wojld do the same had they the power. Human beings are flawed.
Yesterday at 12:57am · Like · 1
Mare Britton Tiido From a very different point of view than the American-bred historic one, although not a contradiction, I could say that candle power - in 1990 was a key element in changing the lives of millions, and perhaps leading to the current wars in middle east. One of the biggest PR coups of the twentieth century culminated in over a million people holding candles in a human chain along the Baltic highway through the night -- making instant headlines from India to US. The Baltic bloodless revolution, song fests and candles, remained front page news daily, literally for weeks running. Not a fist was raised during the freedom drive -- a hundred thousand Russian troupes were stationed in the capital city of Tallinn, with underground tanks fully loaded -- with only one million Estonians in the entire country. But the world was watching. I was there, filming in parliament where it felt like the Watergate hearings with Russian parliamentarians asking Estonians to repeat over and over again the facts and figures that proved that Estonia did not join the Soviet Union willingly, but rather was crushed by both Hitler and Stalin...with more people exterminated and deportedper capita than any country during the second world war. Estonians sent one deputation after another to the Kremlin. Finally at the final showdown, the Russian troupes, guns pointed. refused to shoot Same day, Yeltsin and Reagan (urged by Nancy gave the nod. Editors, here, were almost as ignorant of this history. Thousands of letters to the US and UK media from Estonians the world over changed all that. Now they are conversant with the Ribbentrop-Molotov treaty which has led to rewriting history in the West.
Estonians reversed almost 600 years of captivity -- now modernized without IMF debt, admired for their freedom of internet, entrepreneurial start-ups, including SKYPE, Arvo Part... -- all fueled initially by the power of communication and legislative tools and knowledge of how to use them. Buckminster Fuller argued for this kind of people power.
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Yesterday at 12:59am via · Like · 1
Gene Herron " I just feel that democracy is needed to manage capitalism...and democracy is underutilized in this way. Capitalism needs a good cleaning.."
On the surface this sounds reasonable.
The US experience, and that of Europe, suggests that the Super Rich tend co-opt Democracy through their influence in the mass media and educational systems. They do this to maintain supremacy by suppressing competitors in the marketplace. It is much easier to hold one's competitors down through regulation and target taxation than to compete to keep one's "station" in the economy.
Democracy is vulnerable to demagoguery... the Founders of the United States realized this and caused a viscosity in action of our institutions. In contrast Parliamentary democracies are more easily gulled by "fads".
I do not claim to have the answer. I am skeptical of some of the proposed solutions to inequality of power between peoples.
Yesterday at 2:25am · Like
Christopher C Bergan RD Wolff has a good book out on business cooperatives - could be as exciting as gen IV nuclear!
Yesterday at 2:40am via mobile · Like · 2
Gene Herron " in 1990 was a key element in changing the lives of millions, and perhaps leading to the current wars in middle east. One of the biggest PR coups of the twentieth century culminated in over a million people holding candles in a human chain along the Baltic highway through the night "
The Soviets did not just "leave" Lithuania because of the Baltic Chain. They required more persuasion and work.
The Baltic chain went through all three Baltic states, yes?
One of my former employers went to Estonia. Russian influence was quite strong there, even after liberation. They were using Russian oil for a long time after the Soviets went home,
Freeing Estonia probably appeased the Finns, who are practically kissing cousins to the Estonians. It's a lot easier to free Estonia than to return Karelia peninsula to the Finns.
In this world power and money talks. Gestures are gestures - the Tian An Men was another mass protest that happened right around the time of the Baltic Chain. How well did that demonstration of "people power" turn out?
articles.chicagotribune.com/.../9101040959_1....
Lithuania Parliament A Fortress Of Hope
articles.chicagotribune.com
It is, quite simply, a fortress with a picture of the pope outside the door.Lith...See More
Yesterday at 2:54am · Edited · Like · Remove Preview
Gene Herron Mare - in all fairness.... I read about the French Algerian campaign. They often organized demonstrations to "Counter the FLN". They also drugged people and tossed their weighted bodies into the Med. The French tried all sorts of nonsense to end their occupation of Algeria. Yet they tried, left documents and even had their very own Generals putsch, torture and guerilla campaign (OAS). The French later exported this to latin America. Operation Condor.
We have the example of the Color Revolutions of Eastern Europe, soon followed by.... investors, often from the Carlisle Group. We discover that people who organize these "revolutions" were trained and financed by... investors.
I'm very cynical about "popular protests"... they have a way of being somewhat less than spontaneous.
People power.... don't buy it.
Yesterday at 2:59am · Edited · Like
Mare Britton Tiido Gene Tiananmen Square is in China. China is not, nor has been a democracy. Estonia was a well-functioning democracy between the two world wars with a great banking system. It was difficult to find a maid without a bachelor's degree. It was Europe and seen by many as Scandinavian They did not forget; so they fought for what they once had. Also they were literate for centuries, thanks to a brief Swedish rule. But for 600 years they had no country, just a tribe with an ancient non-Indo-European language so that none of those ruling countries could penetrate the language, which kept their culture together - one cohesive unit. CHinese are a mixture of many languages and tribes, and of course huge in number -- hence highly complex. They had little if any awareness of what was happening in the West. The Russians did to Estonians horrible things too. Deported and tortured mainly women and children. I visited the country in deep soviet era,in 70''s I understand Chinese well and have been able to work closely with them -- mainly the super rich, but the ones that are very anti government but have met ordinary people in China during speaking tours - young teachers who whisper to me about Tiananmen. Their recent emigre society and its strivings is similar in many ways to the Estonian one I grew up in here in Toronto. It is difficult to make genera statements without first seeing the complexities and contradictions..
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Yesterday at 11:23am via · Like
Mare Britton Tiido There is no right way, in my opinion. You have to mix and match -- like a recipe. Otherwise it's all black and white, polarization, which is one of the main drawbacks to human progress. Re peaceful, I met the Dalai Lama's Minister of Foreign affairs -- at least so dubbed by the Dalai Lama. I told him to make sure they don't raise a fist during protests especially if the western media was watching. We love to see peaceful protests. (However, the Chinese are right now cruelly sino-fying Tibetjust as Moscow tried hard (unsuccessfull)y to Russify Estonia -- with the result that the Russians there are on the whole a happy and peaceful lot. In India, did peaceful protest (on the whole) not win them independence, despite the difficult partition? Without peaceful candle light vigils you might not have SKYPE and a million people might not be quite as productive as they have been since 1990. Hurting no-one except Putin's ego. No one hasbeen able to do exactly what they did, not even the Lithuanians who missed by one little scrap. But the orange revolution and the one now in the Ukraine is a lot less bloody than the ones in the middle east. The Occupy and T-party thing are not great for US. (The Occupy ironically was defined by Kalle Lasne, a Canadian Estonian -- Adbusters -- with the short sightedness of visual artists who try on politics.) West needs communication and various agreements among consumers (a powerful group if they only knew it) to trigger changes. This by definition is peaceful, as it isn't bloody. Sorry for this meandering.
>________________________________
Yesterday at 11:35am via · Like
Mare Britton Tiido Rick, sorry for the tangents. But not completely off topic. You topic is how to convey positive image and information about nuclear energy. I am giving examples of how communication often involves image public has of something through media, and how powerful PR can be in creating change. Now I would try to think about how to associate positive images or neutral images (not damaging) about nuclear power to the public, media and through education.
>________________________________
Yesterday at 2:43pm via · Like · 1
Alex Cannara I and a few others in our Silicon Valley
Yesterday at 4:00pm · Like
Alex Cannara I hate this interface! I and a few others in our Silicon Valley Th grooup are members of CCL --the Citizens Climate Lobby which advocates a carbon tax/fee that's revenue neutral and returns all $ to househoilds, This is a strategy to get folkks like Republicans to support it.
Yesterday at 4:02pm · Like
Alex Cannara It, of course, will solve no immediate problem, particulalry because the 1.5 trillion tons of CO2 already emitted are only about 30% dissolved in and acidifying seas, and even if we stopped all emissions today, that process will continue and create massive food-source extinctions well before 2050.
Yesterday at 4:04pm · Like
Alex Cannara Also, fossil-fuel companies already use internal C-taxes up to $60/ton to plan future projects. What needs doing is governmental support for redirecting our hydrocarbon sales industry into a true "energy industry" by aiding their conversion to nuclear systems design, manufacture and operation.
Yesterday at 4:07pm · Like
Alex Cannara We need so much new, non-emitting energy to simply correct ocean chemistry via processed materials, that conversion from fossil hydrocarbons will directly use the skills and jobs of much of the existing industry, even as they redirect toward nuclear energy fields.
Yesterday at 4:09pm · Like · 1
Alex Cannara A carbon tax/fee is not enough -- well, maybe if it charged foir the >500 billion tons of carbon already emitted in the Industrial Age.
Yesterday at 4:10pm · Like
Alex Cannara Please get a web jockey to allow Enter-key paragraphing in this #$&%^@ interface.
Yesterday at 4:11pm · Like · 1
Eric Hanson "Food source extinctions"? Since plants love CO2, doesn't more CO2 mean more food, not less?
Yesterday at 4:12pm · Like
Gene Herron Alex - Welcome to Facebook. This is not a place for serious discussion, but we try our best.
The "science" of ocean acidification is a mystery to me. I once calculated the changes in ocean pH using high school chemistry and found that if the entire...See More
Yesterday at 4:22pm · Edited · Like
Gene Herron "Food source extinctions"? Since plants love CO2, doesn't more CO2 mean more food, not less?
You get new equilibrium of plant growth. The issue before us is whether the plants grow more abundant fast enough to cope with the Carbon Dioxide....See More
Yesterday at 4:21pm · Edited · Like
Gene Herron I consider the IPCC and "Human Caused Global Warming" crew to be practicing Cargo Cult Science.... but I mostly feel that way because so few of them bother to make their work publicly accessible.
After Mann's "Hockey Stick" failed the basic modeling t...See More
Yesterday at 4:20pm · Like
Alex Cannara Ok, Erik & Gene, glad to see you miss the reality of what swamping the natural carbon cycle by 30x each year has done. The pH of seas averages lower than at any time in over 200,000,000 years (fossil, isotopic, sedimentary records). It has moved from...See More
The many ways that molten salt reactors can fight the other CO2 scourge – ocean acidification -...
www.the-weinberg-foundation.org
Just add limestone. Molten salt reactors could process limestone and dolomite in...See More
Yesterday at 4:48pm · Like · 3 · Remove Preview
Alex Cannara Just for Erik -- CO2 increase doesn't cause the same amount of plant CO2 sequestration. And, worse, it stimulates warming of both land & sea, so methane emissions increase, both from bacterial action in soils and seafloors, but also from uncovered permafrost, etc. You can Google that stuff too. Nuclear advocacy requires study. So does environmental understanding. ;]
Yesterday at 4:52pm · Unlike · 2
Eric Hanson It seems that the threat of ocean acidification is over hyped.
"The effect of Ocean Acidification (OA) on marine biota is quasi-predictable at best."...See More
PLOS ONE: High-Frequency Dynamics of Ocean pH: A Multi-Ecosystem Comparison
www.plosone.org
PLOS ONE: an inclusive, peer-reviewed, open-access resource from the PUBLIC LIBR...See More
Yesterday at 7:37pm · Like · Remove Preview
Eric Hanson Patrick Moore on CO2.
"Moore told Climate Depot: “Plants grow much faster when CO2 is higher, the optimum concentration is between 1500-2000 ppm so there is a long way to go before plants are happy. CO2 levels in the atmosphere have continued to rise...See More
Greenpeace co-founder Dr. Patrick Moore: 'Thank goodness we came along & reversed 150...
www.climatedepot.com
Greenpeace Co-Founder Dr. Patrick Moore commented a new study trying to explain ...See More
Yesterday at 7:44pm · Like · Remove Preview
Alex Cannara Thsi i good, Eric, it's always best to study a link before posting...
Yesterday at 7:46pm · Like
Alex Cannara "...often demonstrating that resident organisms are already experiencing pH regimes that are not predicted until 2100. " So indeed ocean pH varies greatly in time, as whales breathe out sharkes excrete... ;] and place -- the N. Atlantic has the great...See More
Yesterday at 7:52pm · Like
Alex Cannara Then wwe have Eric on plannt boliogy. What hapopoens when plants grow faster, eric? What becomes of the carbon they inhale? What happnes when they die? What happens in the soils they live in?
Yesterday at 7:53pm · Like
Alex Cannara What happened in the Cretaceous, Eric? Want to go back to that climate? Want a pet 18-foot centipede?
Yesterday at 7:54pm · Like
Alex Cannara By the way, Eric, when you choose a site to support an argument, choose one that exhibits credibility by having the guts to allow comments -- Climate depot lacks not just science, but guts. ;]
Yesterday at 8:00pm · Like
Eric Hanson Alex, you can try to complicate the issues all you want. Here are some simple truths.
1) CO2 is essential for plant growth. More CO2, more plant growth, more food. The 270 ppm CO2 of 250 years ago was nearly an all time low. CO2 had been declining for...See More
Carbon Dioxide Through the Geological Eras
www.biocab.org
Graphs that demonstrate that carbon dioxide is not causing global warming, but the Sun.
Yesterday at 8:02pm · Like · 1 · Remove Preview
Alex Cannara Nice try Eric. No one disputes how CO2 is used by plants and emitted by them, bacteria and all Oxygen metabolizing species. Bo one is saying ancient times with lower pH didn't have fish evolving -- what was pH in the Devonian, Eric?
Yesterday at 8:07pm · Like
Alex Cannara What you certainly must know from high school science is that species evolve over time, lots of time. The change in ocean pH is faster than anything in the past, just as is our addition of CO2.
Yesterday at 8:08pm · Like
Alex Cannara So, you;re welcome to call Alsakan, Norwegian sea-life business folks and tell them about the devonian and how planyts love more CO2, butbe prepared to hear some questioing about your depth of thought.
Yesterday at 8:10pm · Like
Virgil Fenn Taxation as a method of influencing behavior is already terribly overused. The artificially added cost of whatever is being taxed inevitably and intentionally distorts the market being taxed. It also withdraws some of the wealth in that market from th...See More
Yesterday at 8:22pm · Like · 2
Mare Britton Tiido Gene -- just to lay your cynicism about a happy, innocently earned moment to rest I know the people who started the Baltic Chain. Not rich subversives, one of them an Ontario Arts Council head -- Peeter Sepp, a revered artistic among Canadian artist...See More
Yesterday at 8:29pm · Edited · Like
Virgil Fenn A few prominent environmentalists have already gone public with support for nuclear power. We do have a tremendous advantage in the "war of ideas". The facts are on our side. We capitalize on that by supporting these brave leaders and by focusing on th...See More
Yesterday at 8:44pm · Unlike · 2
Alex Cannara Excellent points Virgil. In case anyone hasn't seen the letter from Hansen eta al: ://www.cnn.com/.../nuclear-energy-climate-change.../ A couple of weeks before the letter, I had lunch with Ken Caldeira at Stanford. He wan...See More
Yesterday at 8:56pm · Unlike · 3
Virgil Fenn For example: Is the author of this book on our side yet?http://www.amazon.com/.../B004.../ref=sr_sp-atf_title_1_1...
Confessions of a Greenpeace Dropout: The Making of a Sensible Environmentalist
www.amazon.com
—Revised Edition 2013—Confessions of a Greenpeace Dropout: The Making of a Sensi...See More
Yesterday at 9:15pm · Like · Remove Preview
Eric Hanson Alex,There are plenty of good reasons to diversify our energy supply and support nuclear power. CO2 paranoia isn't one of them. CO2 is a benign trace gas that plants love. It just isn't the hell-spawned gas that will destroy our civilization and kill...See More
CO2
www.co2science.org
Results and Conclusions In what follows, we present several graphics that help o...See More
Yesterday at 9:28pm · Like · 1 · Remove Preview
Eric Hanson Virgil Fenn, Patrick Moore is indeed pro-nuclear. He is or was the co-chairman of the Clean and Safe Energy Coalition.
casenergy.org/
CASEnergy Coalition
casenergy.org
The Clean and Safe Energy Coalition (CASEnergy Coalition) will be an important v...See More
Yesterday at 9:33pm · Unlike · 2 · Remove Preview
Virgil Fenn Thanks, Eric. Yeah, that looks like a great organization, too. Let's promote it.
22 hours ago · Like · 1
Rick Maltese Not promote it exactly maybe partner with it. Once we become a non-profit organization.
22 hours ago · Like · 2
Alex Cannara Really Eric? "CO2 Science"? A less scientific publication than, let's see, The Sun? Where are trhe data sources listed in this "science" blog? Anyone there actually a scientist? It's actually very easy to get detailed ocean pH data from NOAA, USGS...See More
20 hours ago · Like
Alex Cannara So Ericm, what woulkd \make you jump to the conclusion I have a problem with Patr4ick Moore, when you seem to have a problem grasping what return to climates like the Cretaceous would mean for your chance of survival?
20 hours ago · Like
Alex Cannara I've known of, and referred to, Moore for a few years now. Because he's now wisely pro-nuclear doesn't mean everything else he says is automatically correct. So let's hear of your education & experience related to ocean chemistry and life. I confess to still not being expert in this silly interface.
20 hours ago · Like
Rick Maltese Thanks for your comments Alex. Welcome to our discussions. I am curious. What would threaten human survival in the Cretaceous time. Just guessing high temperatures and Dinosaurs?
20 hours ago · Like
Alex Cannara Sure Rick, we descendend from burrowing animals, which is why we also have male red-green colorblindness -- we came out only at night back then. You know of all the various small-large dinosaurs around ready to gobble up littl folks like our ancestors.
19 hours ago · Unlike · 1
Alex Cannara Actually if we go back to the Carboniferous period, after Eric's Devonian, we'd also have to face more than the 18-foot centipedes, but 2-foot dragonflies as well. Not a good environment for humans until the few million years ago when our closest ancestors arose in Africa.
19 hours ago · Unlike · 1
Eric Hanson Alex, why are you talking about something so silly as a return to a Cretaceous climate? Do you have any evidence that the planet is warming so rapidly as to make such a discussion worthwhile? Or is it simply a scare tactic you use? Check out the graph....See More
18 hours ago · Like · Remove Preview
Eric Hanson As you seem to be interested in my education, I have a B.Sc. in Geology. Note that geo-scientists are among the biggest global warming skeptics since we know better than anyone that climate changes all the time and the rate of climate change also chang...See More
The Magnitude and Rate of Past Global Climate Changes - Bluemle - 2009 - Environmental...
onlinelibrary.wiley.com
Bluemle, J. P., Sabel, J. M. and Karlén, W. (2000), The Magnitude and Rate of Pa...See More
16 hours ago · Like · Remove Preview
Rick Maltese OK. No more Eric. You have carried on long enough. You have a rebuttal on a topic that was never asked for. You managed to alienate at least one member. You do get carried away on climate change a lot of the time. It is easy to start a group. How about a group called Fear Itself. Road to Ruin.
9 hours ago via mobile · Like · 1
Alex Cannara Just one fibnnal bit of fact for Eric. Geologist? Good, those who worked for petro companies are easy pickings.
2 hours ago · Like
Alex Cannara So, your Devonian, Eric -- ever read some of the links you've put up about it? Do you understand why having more CO2 in Devonian air might not lower ocean pH much, so fish could exist with skeletons? Do you realize how many periodic extinctions occur...See More
2 hours ago · Like
Rick Maltese Alex enough. You can always message Eric directly.
2 hours ago · Like
Rick Maltese ALERT - I WILL BE DELETING THIS THREAD TOMORROW - IF YOU WISH TO KEEP ANY OF IT YOU HAVE SOME TIME TO COPY THE INFO. Does anybody feel a summary is called for? I don't mind if you copy and paste the info and save it in our files.https://www.facebook.com/groups/energyreality/files/ After copying the thread or edited version of it, click this link - you can click "Create Doc" and paste what you copied
Energy Reality Project
The Energy Reality Project is the result of recognizing the lack of understandin...
See More
about an hour ago · Edited · Like · Remove Preview
Rick Maltese I think the lesson here is we should not posture. Any belittling or posturing is counter productive.
about an hour ago · Like
Rick Maltese I just renewed the ERP Forumhttp://erp.freeforums.net
Home | Energy Reality Project
erp.freeforums.net
Visit our forum at: erp.freeforums.net
about an hour ago · Like · Remove Preview
Alex Cannara Rick, can we get them to make the interface allo wparagraphing, like most forums?
about an hour ago · Like
Rick Maltese You can do paragraphing by using. Shift-Enter
See what I mean?...See More
about an hour ago · Edited · Like
Alex Cannara The marvels of lazy programming! How about asking them to just doi what other sites do -- Enter = CRLF and have a "Submit" button? I'll bet they can do it, if they try!
about an hour ago · Like
Rick Maltese I'm glad you asked the question. It forced me to learn something that has frustrated me in the past.
about an hour ago · Like
Eric Hanson I am happy to debate with you elsewhere Alex Cannara. Post something on my FB page or pick some neutral ground, if you wish.
50 minutes ago · Like
Rick Maltese I created a place for that kind of discussion
erp.freeforums.net/.../climate-change-global...
CLIMATE CHANGE-GLOBAL WARMING-CO2-METHANE-GHGs | Energy Reality Project
erp.freeforums.net
Many of the crowd who visite the nuclear advocate pages are already convinced that Carbon Dioxide is a serious green house gas that will eventually raise the earths temperatures if it is allowed to
37 minutes ago · Like · 1 · Remove Preview
By Rick Maltese on Sunday, January 5, 2014 at 10:15pm
I wonder if we could advocate a carbon tax as a way to replace government spending. We know that government spending is unpopular. We also know the government gives too much subsidy to wind and solar and indirectly favors natural gas in the process. I have not been a big supporter of a carbon tax but it seems to me that more people might support it if they saw that it would make the playing field more fair.
Seen by 40
Virgil Fenn and Dan Brookshear like this.
Karen Street: Every major report out of the communities that begin with peer review advocate adding a steep cost to GHG emissions, and trashing essentially all subsidies. I would stay out of the tax vs cap and trade vs fee fight, and the fight over where the money goes.
If you don't know why the uber reports advocate this, perhaps this is a good month for reading!
January 2 at 3:28pm · Like · 1
Eric Schmitz: Unpopular in some circles, not so unpopular others. It gets better reviews when it's referred to as "public investment." I don't have blanket support or opposition to spending -- I like my interstates, but don't care much for prohibition. But then one of those is a real investment, while the other is just spending. (IMHO)
I'm mixed on a carbon tax, but that may be because cap-and-trade never impressed me as any kind of solution. If a tax is used, the revenues really should be targeted, as I *think* you are suggesting for consideration. If we're going to have a stick (tax), then there should also be a carrot (responsible investment). And a subsidy cannot be allowed to turn into perpetual life-support.
January 2 at 3:40pm · Like
Eric Schmitz That is, the *disbursement of the revenues should be targeted.
January 2 at 3:40pm · Like
Mare Britton Tiido: carbon tax on what specifically?
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January 2 at 3:50pm via · Like
Leslie Corrice: Carbon Tax makes my blood boil. In the end, it gives the fossil-fuel polluters a way to keep belching their crap into our life-sphere. How about a fossil-fuel moratorium until they can meet the emission levels of nukes? Or am I confusing the issue?
January 2 at 4:00pm · Like · 5
Eric Schmitz That's kind of what I thought, Les. (And I say that as a progressive who is not categorically opposed to taxation and spending.) Cap-and-trade even more so -- it's a non-solution. Carbon tax is somewhat different, but the industry will still just pass the cost along to ratepayers, and the blame back to the government. Even this left-leaner thinks there are probably much better ways to naturally make nuclear cheaper, than to make fossil artificially more expensive. Not fully convinced either way, but I'm dubious.
January 2 at 4:11pm · Like · 3
Christopher C Bergan If the tax is high enough, yes it will dramatically reduce emissions. But then there will be little CO2 to tax and the govt will be in deeper debt (from reduced income). That's what happened with cigarette/cigar taxes anyway.
January 2 at 4:11pm · Like · 1
Mare Britton Tiido It is really like giving a license to pollute -- if you can afford to pay for it.
January 2 at 4:18pm · Like · 1
Eric Hanson Carbon taxes had a lot to do with the Australian government falling. Tread carefully.
January 2 at 4:20pm · Like · 2
Karen Street Stay out of the tax vs cap and trade vs fee argument. If you look at all major analyses from the communities that begin with peer review, they begin with assumptions on what cost has been added to GHG. Les, yes, you could call it pay to pollute or pay too much and shift sources and pollute less.
Again, lots of announcements, you might want to start with the communities that begin with peer review and see what they say and why.
In reality, electricity will not be the only sector affected.
January 2 at 4:53pm · Like
Steve Aplin well, governments are (like all of us) addicted to revenue. If we were to tie government revenues to carbon emissions, the incentive would be to maximize carbon emissions!
That would be bad for both nuclear advocacy and the atmospheric thermodynamics.
January 2 at 5:10pm via · Like · 2
Karen Street Yep, the inevitable result of a steep cost on GHG emissions is increasing GHG emissions. Just the opposite of what I learned in econ, but hey...
January 2 at 5:13pm · Like
Eric Hanson Here is a Forbes article on the realities of a carbon tax in the USA. It makes the point that even if the USA adopts a carbon tax or some other method of adding a cost to carbon, then coal from the USA will simply to exported and burned someplace else. The effect? Sabotage the US economy with no environmental benefit.
Low carbon power, be it nuclear or whatever, has to be made genuinely cheaper than high carbon power. Artificially making high carbon power more expensive will not do as carbon taxes etc. will not be made same from one country to the next.
I see no public apatite for what amounts to a money grab in aid of trivial environmental benefits.
"A recent Congressional Budget Office (CBO) analysis, “Effects of a Carbon Tax on the Economy and the Environment” may include a clue. The report is pretty much boilerplate except for where it departs into a specific section on the implementation of the tax on coal producers:
“…analysts suggest that because the bulk of coal is used to generate electricity, emissions resulting from coal could be covered by taxing electricity generators on the basis of their actual emissions”.
Whose analysts?
Taxing coal at the point of electricity generation will be a decreasing expense to the industry (since EPA has pretty much outlawed any new coal-fired power plants), more than made up for by the bonanza of tax-free coal “leaking” from the highly-regulated U.S. to ports around the world."
www.forbes.com/.../the-carbon-tax-washingtons.../
The Carbon Tax: Washington's Latest Bad Idea, Oddly Shepherded By Republicans
www.forbes.com
In D.C., bad ideas are never in short supply.
January 2 at 5:23pm · Like · 2 · Remove Preview
Karen Street Is this a major report from the communities that begin with peer review or a hack talking outside his field of expertise, paid to talk outside his field of expertise by fossil fuel interests?
Hint: people who get their information from hacks paid by the fossil fuel industries to say stuff that does not overlap with analysis from the communities that begin with peer review are not friends of nuclear power. Again, not rocket science.
January 2 at 5:28pm · Like
Eric Hanson Nor is it rocket science to understand that if the use of coal is made artificially expensive in the USA, it will simply be burned somewhere else. What part of this do you not understand?
January 2 at 5:34pm · Like
Karen Street There either will be international agreements to do same everywhere, or at least in all countries where a majority make >$2/day, or there will be a few countries charging a tax at the border and taking advantage of that tax for their own national budget. Eric, do you really think that Michaels has brilliant thoughts tens of thousands of PhDs in the field failed to consider?
Even with all those great $$ff rolling in? $$$$ from the ff people helps the ticker to really understand the issues.
January 2 at 5:41pm · Like
Eric Hanson Michaels is a climatologist and what is your justification for calling him a "hack" who is "paid to talk outside his field of expertise by fossil fuel interests"?
"Patrick J. ("Pat") Michaels (born February 15, 1950) is an American climatologist. Michaels is a senior research fellow for Research and Economic Development at George Mason University,[1] and a senior fellow in environmental studies at the Cato Institute. Until 2007 he was research professor of environmental sciences at the University of Virginia, where he had worked from 1980.[2]
A self-described skeptic on the issue of global warming, he is a past president of the American Association of State Climatologists.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Michaels
Patrick Michaels - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org
Patrick J. ("Pat") Michaels (born February 15, 1950) is an American climatologis...See More
January 2 at 5:56pm · Edited · Like · Remove Preview
Karen Street Michaels was not a climatologist, he studied the effect of climate on ag. More than that he is not an important part of the economics community that begins with peer review, he does not characterize for our benefit what they say, and yet you link to him based on his economics expertise. Rick your FB page will be worth nothing if you allow climate denial, or economic analysis by climate deniers. Not to mention how embarrassing it is to be on a page where people link to climate deniers. Despite all of Michaels $$ff, he is not an expert. And really, people who do presentations at groups that tell birther jokes? He doesn't even take himself seriously. $$ff $$ff $$ff Do we really want the $$ff analysis to interfere with discussion?
January 2 at 6:02pm · Like
Eric Hanson Karen,Michaels' wikipedia page clearly states that he is a climatologist.
“Patrick Michaels obtained an A.B. in biological science in 1971 and an S.M. in biology in 1975 from the University of Chicago, and in 1979 obtained his Ph.D. in ecological climatology from the University of Wisconsin-Madison His doctoral thesis was titled, Atmospheric anomalies and crop yields in North America.”
So please retract your statement about him not being a climatologist.
January 2 at 6:11pm · Like
Karen Street Far be it from me to argue with Wikipedia which says that his study was in biology and he wrote, "Atmospheric anomalies and crop yields in North America.” Can't argue there, I must have been totally wrong that his expertise is the effect of climate on ag,
OK, am leaving until/if this discussion becomes more serious. Either that or I come back with my own farm expert to opine on economic policy, although without the $$ff.
January 2 at 6:17pm · Like
Eric Hanson Tell me something Karen. How can a guy with a Ph.D in Ecological Climatology NOT be considered a climatologist? Do you get to decide who is and who isn't a climatologist?
January 2 at 6:21pm · Like
Karen Street Wow, I guess he is a climatologist, because his degree has climatology in the name. Does that make him an expert in anything besides the effect of climate on ag? and other plants presumably. Does his ability to sniff out $$ff make him an economics expert? If you win the point that people whose expertise is not in paleo or etc or etc or etc but the effects of climate change on ag are also climatologists, what point have you won exactly?
January 2 at 7:28pm · Like
Mare Britton Tiido I have not researched any of this, but the idea that someone cannot broaden his knowledge and know just as much as someone with a degree in that specific field is not beyond the realm of possibiity, especially if that person is a specialist in another related field.
January 2 at 8:32pm · Like · 2
Eric Hanson Karen, this FB page is about energy. Climate is a tangential issue. Once again you are attempting to hijack a FB page for your own agenda and have advocated censorship.
In other silliness, you made a statement above about international agreements on emissions. How has that worked out so far? I hear the Chinese have been particularly cooperative.
It is preposterous to think that binding, meaningful international agreements on CO2 emissions that will actually be respected are going to happen when there hasn't been any warming since 1998, there has been no increase in extreme weather, and the climate models have failed.
www.cato.org/.../peer-reviewed-or-not-ipcc-accepts...
Peer-reviewed or Not, the IPCC Accepts Our Conclusion
www.cato.org
Three years after our finding was rejected by the scientific literature, the res...See More
January 2 at 8:57pm · Like · 2 · Remove Preview
Cheryl Rofer The argument (from Rick, up top) that a carbon tax would "replace government spending" doesn't make sense. For that matter, the whole argument that government spending is bad doesn't make sense. Do you think that the government should field a military? Do you like roads? Schools? Clean water? And a host of other things. If you do, then you should be glad that the people have voted to fund them. And you should be glad to pay your share. There's no free lunch.
The government is us. We vote in our representatives. We make up the school boards and county councils. If you don't like what the government is doing, get active politically. Don't just sit around and whine.
Would a carbon tax bring in more money? You bet. One of the things that might be discussed is where that money should go. Right now, our Congress is starving the economy. So more money would be a good thing in lots of places. Young people are graduating from college today with unconscionable loads of debt because the no-tax people have forced state legislatures to cut back on funding education.
Or how about all that research for nuclear that the private sector has amply shown it's not going to do? The big advances in nuclear power were made in the 1950s and 1960s, funded by the government.
Or another moon shot?
Lots of good things we can do if we get off this fantasy that government spending is bad, and yes, we can have a free lunch.
January 3 at 10:07am · Like
Gene Herron "We also know the government gives too much subsidy to wind and solar and indirectly favors natural gas in the process. I have not been a big supporter of a carbon tax but it seems to me that more people might support it if they saw that it would make the playing field more fair."
So rather than making energy abundant and clean you want to make the poor poorer, the richer poorer, give the Government more money to squander on wars, Regulatory non-sense and other useless crap?
How about we just get the newer cleaner energy dense technologies online and let the consumers decide as petroleum becomes more expensive, Natural Gas prices becomes volatile as people use more of it and so on?
January 3 at 5:47pm · Edited · Like · 1
Gene Herron It's good to discuss options and to dismiss rotten options.
To me a carbon tax is only slightly better morally than giving Billionaires a new subsidy - letting them speculate on carbon futures.
January 3 at 5:48pm · Edited · Like · 1
Rick Maltese Glad to see thoughtful comments from several people. The one nagging truth is that we need to reform the NRC but I am sure there are other things we need to do first. Any ideas?
January 3 at 6:16pm via mobile · Like · 1
Gene Herron "The government is us. We vote in our representatives. We make up the school boards and county councils. If you don't like what the government is doing, get active politically. Don't just sit around and whine."
The Presidential Election of 2000 and the Washington Governors race of 2003 are examples of a fact - the Government is NOT US.
The Government is OF US and OVER US.
Government spending is neither good nor bad. Government spending is necessary and ought to be based upon necessity and not "This is a neat idea, let's try it".
January 3 at 7:26pm · Edited · Like · 2
Cheryl Rofer Good excuse for sitting back and whining, Gene!
January 3 at 7:54pm · Like
Gene Herron Knowing one's limitations, Cheryl, enables one to take effective action. Effective meaning that you get the best return on your effort.
To me demonstrations, candle light vigils, and histrionics don't work as well as joining Interest groups who hire lobbyists - since Congress is for sale - and targeting your buying to agreeable outfits, since money talks louder than words.
Hardly doing "nothing" but not squandering time on gestures. I do vote but more to look at the Bond Issues and to help out good local candidates. I consider most politicians on the local level to be reasonable people. I consider most of the politicians in DC to be deceptive, indifferent and self indulgent. Some politicos in the urban areas are to me almost oppressive.
January 3 at 7:59pm · Edited · Unlike · 3
Mare Britton Tiido the democractic process is underutilized. If society were a person, then the side that is overactive would be called capitalism, the one that is paralyzed would be democracy. People need to be informed of issues and the political process -- learn how to lobby, send letters to editors and local representatives etc. until things reach critical mass. This works.
January 3 at 8:13pm · Unlike · 2
Mare Britton Tiido communication and education are the means to political change.
January 3 at 8:13pm · Unlike · 2
Mare Britton Tiido Candle light vigils however work better than angry mobs who spew conspiracy theories without a clue to what they are talking about. But in a large established democracy like US, definitely lobbying, specific targeting of news editors etc....can lead to sudden awakening of media making new angles and topics timely, which spreads and affects politicians et al.
January 3 at 8:17pm · Like · 1
Gene Herron " the democractic process is underutilized. If society were a person, then the side that is overactive would be called capitalism, the one that is paralyzed would be democracy."
I tend to think that "capitalism" is under utilized because the US has been crony capitalist since the Great Depression. Our "Business Leaders" do not like capitalism and stifle it by Regulatory Capture (example - how many FDA managers were once and will be in the employ of drug and ag business companies) and through special legislation that favors them with tax breaks (example - GE not paying taxes for how many years?). At one time or another someone has said, "The folks who are most opposed to capitalism are the managers of large businesses".
Even Organized Labor today are businesses. The UAW, for example, owns GM today. They also own part of Chysler, at least until it is sold off to the Italian Government (Fiat). This takeover was engineered in the White House, and in the process shafted Union pension funds - of unions other than the UAW.
Mike Dukakis called it "partnerships between Government and Business". Mussolini called it fascism and then lied about the trains running on time. If you disagreed he gave you castor oil. Mike just dismissed you, as did his friends - on both sides of the aisle. The GOP are often fascist in thought.
The purest form of capitalism in the US is the underground drug market. Please note how the Government persecutes it.
Most people only act when the pain of doing nothing exceeds the cost of educating themselves and changing the minds of others. Most people are well fed, complacent and if not happy at least satisfied. I think it was observed in the Eastern Bloc that they only saw riots when people went hungry.
You work with what you have in front of you while you at least try to persuade others.
I am not being cynical... except about candle light vigils or putting on a uniform, going into the woods and pretending to be a soldier. Or going to online ideological echo chambers....
Better to learn something new....
January 3 at 9:05pm · Edited · Like · 1
Gene Herron "communication and education are the means to political change."
True. Both are challenged by "conventional wisdom" and the annoying tendency of people to want "sound bites".
The issue I have with a "sound bite" is that at best it is a reinforcement of a previously held opinion. It's a form of "zinging", which is apropos for children.
Changing one's point of view is challenging, often caused by "aha!" moments.
Just imagine the aggravation some would feel if they read my remarks about "The purest form of capitalism in the US is in the underground drug markets" or "the US has been crony capitalist since 1933". Aggravation tends to make people confirm their own biases.
People have to be willing to change their own points of view before you can educate them.
January 3 at 8:55pm · Edited · Like · 2
Mare Britton Tiido there is a lot about history you don't know. The eastern bloc, baltic countries etc. And the campaigns to media editors that have indeed brought about important changes -- of little importance perhaps to American born. But you know about history from other perspectives. You are using the word capitalism in a different way. One can use words to mean different things depending on context. The managers of large businesses..may be so, but those who sit on heaps of money in West have made their original headway mostly through capitalistic means, not through military or totalitarian. But the way in which things have grown..that is another huge complex topic...bottom line -- the gap between rich and poor, the decayed education system, pollution of air and water...and the general squeezing of the middle class. But nothing is black and white. And I think those who think they know so much, based on little experience or investigation,are simply wrong most of the time, as they think in big sweeps, black and white etc. It is so easy for them to arrive at conclusions. (I am not casting aspersions on you here...as i have only glimpsed your views.) They forget too that the human race is flawed.
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January 3 at 10:42pm via · Like · 1
Mare Britton Tiido Sound bytes are stuff of TV and online news, but good editorials and books are still being printed and are influential if read by reform-minded. NYT last year printed an article about how China, despite the unheathy reach of a totalitarian govt, has demonstrated admiral skills in bringing millions -- about 80 million -- into an improved standard of living, in their realization that they cannot have a great economy unless they eradicate hunger and provide education to as many people as possible. Then the writer points to India, the world's biggest democracy, where only a sliver of the population have benefitted through new industry and jobs in high tech and pharma. That was a watershed article I believe, as it posed a challenge to India who has prided itself on a modernization (westernization) that leaves most of the country untouched and in appalling conditions. Since that article, I've seen a trickle of stories by media, inc. NYT, on anti-povertyand social improvement start ups in India.
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January 3 at 11:54pm via · Unlike · 1
Rick Maltese I was stirring up trouble with this one I see. Did not realize carbon tax was such a hot issue. But we can't just sit back and do nothing about the governments "all of the above approach" to energy. That is the real problem. That, and treating the fossil fuels (i.e.natural gas and coal) with more lenience than nuclear. It has forced the closing of Kewaunee Nuclear Plant and will probably affect others too My aim of asking the question was to get people to think about the issue. I have no simple answers. I started up deregulate the atom as a attention grabber. Again I was trying to raise awareness about the unfair treatment of the nuclear industry compared to the others. I certainly never intended for anyone to think I wanted to fully deregulate nuclear plants.
Yesterday at 12:02am · Edited · Like · 2
Gene Herron " but those who sit on heaps of money in West have made their original headway mostly through capitalistic means, not through military or totalitarian. "
I cannot speak for other nations. The US monied interests have made most of their money from warfare since 1900. Hardly "Capitalism" based upon healthy competition, more crony capitalism.
The US got into World War 1 because Morgan lent the British 6 billion dollars. He wanted his money back. If Britain lost no repayment. Wilson went along because all of his supporters were friends of Morgan.
The Entente invasion of Russia was most certainly about money. Not capitalism, but securing Russian war supplies from the Germans.
Between the Wars Congressional Medal of Honor Winner Lewis Puller wrote a book called "War is a racket". He said, "I was just a bag man for Wall Street". General Puller was decorated twice with the US Congressional Medal of Honor.
World War 2 began in part because US monied interests invested in both Hitler and the Japanese Zaibatsu. They then profited heavily from "war profits" when their "investments" got busy in Asia. Easy to do after Pearl Harbor ended "Isolationism".
The US Government was quite generous with tax breaks and "war bond" monies... right into the pockets of the super rich.
Korea began as a mistake by the Truman Administration, which baited Kim and Soviets to invade. Dean Atcheson's "We have no interest in the affairs of the Koreas". This ended the post war recession.
The Cold War began to "save the US defense industry".
The Pentagon Papers clearly showed why the US went to Vietnam. Follow the money to see how many helicopters were lost in SE Asia, among other war materiel.
The US invasions in the Middle East benefited rich investors.
Before you raise a hand about "eastern Europe" mind telling me who benefited in the Eastern Bloc - the site of the purest State Capitalism on Earth - from the Soviet bloc's rampant paranoia? The Party lived like lords while the average Soviet citizen dreamed of their own houses in the city and flush toilets in the countryside. Do you believe that the USSR "helped" South Africans out of the goodness of their hearts, or to raise the prices for Soviet chromium and gold?
Capitalism? Please! Capitalism gets blamed but its really the State and it's "partners" who benefit....
Yesterday at 12:06am · Edited · Like · 1
Gene Herron "That, and treating the fossil fuels (i.e.natural gas and coal) with more lenience than nuclear"
Rick - if Nuclear energy was a subculture of people with voting rights politicians would award it affirmative action due to "past oppression".
Nuclear energy has been the subject of grotesque bigotry, completely vile.
Hyman Rickover showed the PROPER way to run a nuke operation - Do you homework, learn the fundamentals, document and consistently run things. The US Navy had minimal trouble, no K-129s on our subs.
The average non technical American thinks that Homer Simpson is the typical nuke worker. The typical nuke worker I have met is more like Winston Wolfe in "Pulp Fiction" - Quiet, competent, no non-sense. At all.
Taxing coal and oil won't end this nonsense.... it'll just make Luddite energy more attractive.
What is needed in my view is to educate people on the benefits of nuclear energy. Especially newer technologies that are resilient against Fukushimas and Chernobyls... so that they are as reliable as the ascent stage of the Apollo lander.
Yesterday at 12:19am · Edited · Like · 1
Rick Maltese It would be nice if government spending and taxing had some kind of karmic balancing act taking place. My half baked proposals point out that knowing the issues is important. Gene and Mare both make good points. Understanding how much of the people's wishes (or for that matter their complacency) affect decision making and how much are from lobbyists is a significant question. If you can't beat 'em join 'em may be the motto that we need to most directly affect change. Maybe we need to become lobbyists.
Yesterday at 12:33am · Edited · Like · 1
Mare Britton Tiido Gene, I am not blaming capitalism. I just feel that democracy is needed to manage capitalism...and democracy is underutilized in this way. Capitalism needs a good cleaning. The Stock market and shorting, now an engine to enable unbridled greed, so the top of the heap takes 90 per cent, while affluent get some, and rest get none. So much unbridled greed. I do acknowledge that most of the people who point their finger wojld do the same had they the power. Human beings are flawed.
Yesterday at 12:57am · Like · 1
Mare Britton Tiido From a very different point of view than the American-bred historic one, although not a contradiction, I could say that candle power - in 1990 was a key element in changing the lives of millions, and perhaps leading to the current wars in middle east. One of the biggest PR coups of the twentieth century culminated in over a million people holding candles in a human chain along the Baltic highway through the night -- making instant headlines from India to US. The Baltic bloodless revolution, song fests and candles, remained front page news daily, literally for weeks running. Not a fist was raised during the freedom drive -- a hundred thousand Russian troupes were stationed in the capital city of Tallinn, with underground tanks fully loaded -- with only one million Estonians in the entire country. But the world was watching. I was there, filming in parliament where it felt like the Watergate hearings with Russian parliamentarians asking Estonians to repeat over and over again the facts and figures that proved that Estonia did not join the Soviet Union willingly, but rather was crushed by both Hitler and Stalin...with more people exterminated and deportedper capita than any country during the second world war. Estonians sent one deputation after another to the Kremlin. Finally at the final showdown, the Russian troupes, guns pointed. refused to shoot Same day, Yeltsin and Reagan (urged by Nancy gave the nod. Editors, here, were almost as ignorant of this history. Thousands of letters to the US and UK media from Estonians the world over changed all that. Now they are conversant with the Ribbentrop-Molotov treaty which has led to rewriting history in the West.
Estonians reversed almost 600 years of captivity -- now modernized without IMF debt, admired for their freedom of internet, entrepreneurial start-ups, including SKYPE, Arvo Part... -- all fueled initially by the power of communication and legislative tools and knowledge of how to use them. Buckminster Fuller argued for this kind of people power.
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Yesterday at 12:59am via · Like · 1
Gene Herron " I just feel that democracy is needed to manage capitalism...and democracy is underutilized in this way. Capitalism needs a good cleaning.."
On the surface this sounds reasonable.
The US experience, and that of Europe, suggests that the Super Rich tend co-opt Democracy through their influence in the mass media and educational systems. They do this to maintain supremacy by suppressing competitors in the marketplace. It is much easier to hold one's competitors down through regulation and target taxation than to compete to keep one's "station" in the economy.
Democracy is vulnerable to demagoguery... the Founders of the United States realized this and caused a viscosity in action of our institutions. In contrast Parliamentary democracies are more easily gulled by "fads".
I do not claim to have the answer. I am skeptical of some of the proposed solutions to inequality of power between peoples.
Yesterday at 2:25am · Like
Christopher C Bergan RD Wolff has a good book out on business cooperatives - could be as exciting as gen IV nuclear!
Yesterday at 2:40am via mobile · Like · 2
Gene Herron " in 1990 was a key element in changing the lives of millions, and perhaps leading to the current wars in middle east. One of the biggest PR coups of the twentieth century culminated in over a million people holding candles in a human chain along the Baltic highway through the night "
The Soviets did not just "leave" Lithuania because of the Baltic Chain. They required more persuasion and work.
The Baltic chain went through all three Baltic states, yes?
One of my former employers went to Estonia. Russian influence was quite strong there, even after liberation. They were using Russian oil for a long time after the Soviets went home,
Freeing Estonia probably appeased the Finns, who are practically kissing cousins to the Estonians. It's a lot easier to free Estonia than to return Karelia peninsula to the Finns.
In this world power and money talks. Gestures are gestures - the Tian An Men was another mass protest that happened right around the time of the Baltic Chain. How well did that demonstration of "people power" turn out?
articles.chicagotribune.com/.../9101040959_1....
Lithuania Parliament A Fortress Of Hope
articles.chicagotribune.com
It is, quite simply, a fortress with a picture of the pope outside the door.Lith...See More
Yesterday at 2:54am · Edited · Like · Remove Preview
Gene Herron Mare - in all fairness.... I read about the French Algerian campaign. They often organized demonstrations to "Counter the FLN". They also drugged people and tossed their weighted bodies into the Med. The French tried all sorts of nonsense to end their occupation of Algeria. Yet they tried, left documents and even had their very own Generals putsch, torture and guerilla campaign (OAS). The French later exported this to latin America. Operation Condor.
We have the example of the Color Revolutions of Eastern Europe, soon followed by.... investors, often from the Carlisle Group. We discover that people who organize these "revolutions" were trained and financed by... investors.
I'm very cynical about "popular protests"... they have a way of being somewhat less than spontaneous.
People power.... don't buy it.
Yesterday at 2:59am · Edited · Like
Mare Britton Tiido Gene Tiananmen Square is in China. China is not, nor has been a democracy. Estonia was a well-functioning democracy between the two world wars with a great banking system. It was difficult to find a maid without a bachelor's degree. It was Europe and seen by many as Scandinavian They did not forget; so they fought for what they once had. Also they were literate for centuries, thanks to a brief Swedish rule. But for 600 years they had no country, just a tribe with an ancient non-Indo-European language so that none of those ruling countries could penetrate the language, which kept their culture together - one cohesive unit. CHinese are a mixture of many languages and tribes, and of course huge in number -- hence highly complex. They had little if any awareness of what was happening in the West. The Russians did to Estonians horrible things too. Deported and tortured mainly women and children. I visited the country in deep soviet era,in 70''s I understand Chinese well and have been able to work closely with them -- mainly the super rich, but the ones that are very anti government but have met ordinary people in China during speaking tours - young teachers who whisper to me about Tiananmen. Their recent emigre society and its strivings is similar in many ways to the Estonian one I grew up in here in Toronto. It is difficult to make genera statements without first seeing the complexities and contradictions..
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Yesterday at 11:23am via · Like
Mare Britton Tiido There is no right way, in my opinion. You have to mix and match -- like a recipe. Otherwise it's all black and white, polarization, which is one of the main drawbacks to human progress. Re peaceful, I met the Dalai Lama's Minister of Foreign affairs -- at least so dubbed by the Dalai Lama. I told him to make sure they don't raise a fist during protests especially if the western media was watching. We love to see peaceful protests. (However, the Chinese are right now cruelly sino-fying Tibetjust as Moscow tried hard (unsuccessfull)y to Russify Estonia -- with the result that the Russians there are on the whole a happy and peaceful lot. In India, did peaceful protest (on the whole) not win them independence, despite the difficult partition? Without peaceful candle light vigils you might not have SKYPE and a million people might not be quite as productive as they have been since 1990. Hurting no-one except Putin's ego. No one hasbeen able to do exactly what they did, not even the Lithuanians who missed by one little scrap. But the orange revolution and the one now in the Ukraine is a lot less bloody than the ones in the middle east. The Occupy and T-party thing are not great for US. (The Occupy ironically was defined by Kalle Lasne, a Canadian Estonian -- Adbusters -- with the short sightedness of visual artists who try on politics.) West needs communication and various agreements among consumers (a powerful group if they only knew it) to trigger changes. This by definition is peaceful, as it isn't bloody. Sorry for this meandering.
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Yesterday at 11:35am via · Like
Mare Britton Tiido Rick, sorry for the tangents. But not completely off topic. You topic is how to convey positive image and information about nuclear energy. I am giving examples of how communication often involves image public has of something through media, and how powerful PR can be in creating change. Now I would try to think about how to associate positive images or neutral images (not damaging) about nuclear power to the public, media and through education.
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Yesterday at 2:43pm via · Like · 1
Alex Cannara I and a few others in our Silicon Valley
Yesterday at 4:00pm · Like
Alex Cannara I hate this interface! I and a few others in our Silicon Valley Th grooup are members of CCL --the Citizens Climate Lobby which advocates a carbon tax/fee that's revenue neutral and returns all $ to househoilds, This is a strategy to get folkks like Republicans to support it.
Yesterday at 4:02pm · Like
Alex Cannara It, of course, will solve no immediate problem, particulalry because the 1.5 trillion tons of CO2 already emitted are only about 30% dissolved in and acidifying seas, and even if we stopped all emissions today, that process will continue and create massive food-source extinctions well before 2050.
Yesterday at 4:04pm · Like
Alex Cannara Also, fossil-fuel companies already use internal C-taxes up to $60/ton to plan future projects. What needs doing is governmental support for redirecting our hydrocarbon sales industry into a true "energy industry" by aiding their conversion to nuclear systems design, manufacture and operation.
Yesterday at 4:07pm · Like
Alex Cannara We need so much new, non-emitting energy to simply correct ocean chemistry via processed materials, that conversion from fossil hydrocarbons will directly use the skills and jobs of much of the existing industry, even as they redirect toward nuclear energy fields.
Yesterday at 4:09pm · Like · 1
Alex Cannara A carbon tax/fee is not enough -- well, maybe if it charged foir the >500 billion tons of carbon already emitted in the Industrial Age.
Yesterday at 4:10pm · Like
Alex Cannara Please get a web jockey to allow Enter-key paragraphing in this #$&%^@ interface.
Yesterday at 4:11pm · Like · 1
Eric Hanson "Food source extinctions"? Since plants love CO2, doesn't more CO2 mean more food, not less?
Yesterday at 4:12pm · Like
Gene Herron Alex - Welcome to Facebook. This is not a place for serious discussion, but we try our best.
The "science" of ocean acidification is a mystery to me. I once calculated the changes in ocean pH using high school chemistry and found that if the entire...See More
Yesterday at 4:22pm · Edited · Like
Gene Herron "Food source extinctions"? Since plants love CO2, doesn't more CO2 mean more food, not less?
You get new equilibrium of plant growth. The issue before us is whether the plants grow more abundant fast enough to cope with the Carbon Dioxide....See More
Yesterday at 4:21pm · Edited · Like
Gene Herron I consider the IPCC and "Human Caused Global Warming" crew to be practicing Cargo Cult Science.... but I mostly feel that way because so few of them bother to make their work publicly accessible.
After Mann's "Hockey Stick" failed the basic modeling t...See More
Yesterday at 4:20pm · Like
Alex Cannara Ok, Erik & Gene, glad to see you miss the reality of what swamping the natural carbon cycle by 30x each year has done. The pH of seas averages lower than at any time in over 200,000,000 years (fossil, isotopic, sedimentary records). It has moved from...See More
The many ways that molten salt reactors can fight the other CO2 scourge – ocean acidification -...
www.the-weinberg-foundation.org
Just add limestone. Molten salt reactors could process limestone and dolomite in...See More
Yesterday at 4:48pm · Like · 3 · Remove Preview
Alex Cannara Just for Erik -- CO2 increase doesn't cause the same amount of plant CO2 sequestration. And, worse, it stimulates warming of both land & sea, so methane emissions increase, both from bacterial action in soils and seafloors, but also from uncovered permafrost, etc. You can Google that stuff too. Nuclear advocacy requires study. So does environmental understanding. ;]
Yesterday at 4:52pm · Unlike · 2
Eric Hanson It seems that the threat of ocean acidification is over hyped.
"The effect of Ocean Acidification (OA) on marine biota is quasi-predictable at best."...See More
PLOS ONE: High-Frequency Dynamics of Ocean pH: A Multi-Ecosystem Comparison
www.plosone.org
PLOS ONE: an inclusive, peer-reviewed, open-access resource from the PUBLIC LIBR...See More
Yesterday at 7:37pm · Like · Remove Preview
Eric Hanson Patrick Moore on CO2.
"Moore told Climate Depot: “Plants grow much faster when CO2 is higher, the optimum concentration is between 1500-2000 ppm so there is a long way to go before plants are happy. CO2 levels in the atmosphere have continued to rise...See More
Greenpeace co-founder Dr. Patrick Moore: 'Thank goodness we came along & reversed 150...
www.climatedepot.com
Greenpeace Co-Founder Dr. Patrick Moore commented a new study trying to explain ...See More
Yesterday at 7:44pm · Like · Remove Preview
Alex Cannara Thsi i good, Eric, it's always best to study a link before posting...
Yesterday at 7:46pm · Like
Alex Cannara "...often demonstrating that resident organisms are already experiencing pH regimes that are not predicted until 2100. " So indeed ocean pH varies greatly in time, as whales breathe out sharkes excrete... ;] and place -- the N. Atlantic has the great...See More
Yesterday at 7:52pm · Like
Alex Cannara Then wwe have Eric on plannt boliogy. What hapopoens when plants grow faster, eric? What becomes of the carbon they inhale? What happnes when they die? What happens in the soils they live in?
Yesterday at 7:53pm · Like
Alex Cannara What happened in the Cretaceous, Eric? Want to go back to that climate? Want a pet 18-foot centipede?
Yesterday at 7:54pm · Like
Alex Cannara By the way, Eric, when you choose a site to support an argument, choose one that exhibits credibility by having the guts to allow comments -- Climate depot lacks not just science, but guts. ;]
Yesterday at 8:00pm · Like
Eric Hanson Alex, you can try to complicate the issues all you want. Here are some simple truths.
1) CO2 is essential for plant growth. More CO2, more plant growth, more food. The 270 ppm CO2 of 250 years ago was nearly an all time low. CO2 had been declining for...See More
Carbon Dioxide Through the Geological Eras
www.biocab.org
Graphs that demonstrate that carbon dioxide is not causing global warming, but the Sun.
Yesterday at 8:02pm · Like · 1 · Remove Preview
Alex Cannara Nice try Eric. No one disputes how CO2 is used by plants and emitted by them, bacteria and all Oxygen metabolizing species. Bo one is saying ancient times with lower pH didn't have fish evolving -- what was pH in the Devonian, Eric?
Yesterday at 8:07pm · Like
Alex Cannara What you certainly must know from high school science is that species evolve over time, lots of time. The change in ocean pH is faster than anything in the past, just as is our addition of CO2.
Yesterday at 8:08pm · Like
Alex Cannara So, you;re welcome to call Alsakan, Norwegian sea-life business folks and tell them about the devonian and how planyts love more CO2, butbe prepared to hear some questioing about your depth of thought.
Yesterday at 8:10pm · Like
Virgil Fenn Taxation as a method of influencing behavior is already terribly overused. The artificially added cost of whatever is being taxed inevitably and intentionally distorts the market being taxed. It also withdraws some of the wealth in that market from th...See More
Yesterday at 8:22pm · Like · 2
Mare Britton Tiido Gene -- just to lay your cynicism about a happy, innocently earned moment to rest I know the people who started the Baltic Chain. Not rich subversives, one of them an Ontario Arts Council head -- Peeter Sepp, a revered artistic among Canadian artist...See More
Yesterday at 8:29pm · Edited · Like
Virgil Fenn A few prominent environmentalists have already gone public with support for nuclear power. We do have a tremendous advantage in the "war of ideas". The facts are on our side. We capitalize on that by supporting these brave leaders and by focusing on th...See More
Yesterday at 8:44pm · Unlike · 2
Alex Cannara Excellent points Virgil. In case anyone hasn't seen the letter from Hansen eta al: ://www.cnn.com/.../nuclear-energy-climate-change.../ A couple of weeks before the letter, I had lunch with Ken Caldeira at Stanford. He wan...See More
Yesterday at 8:56pm · Unlike · 3
Virgil Fenn For example: Is the author of this book on our side yet?http://www.amazon.com/.../B004.../ref=sr_sp-atf_title_1_1...
Confessions of a Greenpeace Dropout: The Making of a Sensible Environmentalist
www.amazon.com
—Revised Edition 2013—Confessions of a Greenpeace Dropout: The Making of a Sensi...See More
Yesterday at 9:15pm · Like · Remove Preview
Eric Hanson Alex,There are plenty of good reasons to diversify our energy supply and support nuclear power. CO2 paranoia isn't one of them. CO2 is a benign trace gas that plants love. It just isn't the hell-spawned gas that will destroy our civilization and kill...See More
CO2
www.co2science.org
Results and Conclusions In what follows, we present several graphics that help o...See More
Yesterday at 9:28pm · Like · 1 · Remove Preview
Eric Hanson Virgil Fenn, Patrick Moore is indeed pro-nuclear. He is or was the co-chairman of the Clean and Safe Energy Coalition.
casenergy.org/
CASEnergy Coalition
casenergy.org
The Clean and Safe Energy Coalition (CASEnergy Coalition) will be an important v...See More
Yesterday at 9:33pm · Unlike · 2 · Remove Preview
Virgil Fenn Thanks, Eric. Yeah, that looks like a great organization, too. Let's promote it.
22 hours ago · Like · 1
Rick Maltese Not promote it exactly maybe partner with it. Once we become a non-profit organization.
22 hours ago · Like · 2
Alex Cannara Really Eric? "CO2 Science"? A less scientific publication than, let's see, The Sun? Where are trhe data sources listed in this "science" blog? Anyone there actually a scientist? It's actually very easy to get detailed ocean pH data from NOAA, USGS...See More
20 hours ago · Like
Alex Cannara So Ericm, what woulkd \make you jump to the conclusion I have a problem with Patr4ick Moore, when you seem to have a problem grasping what return to climates like the Cretaceous would mean for your chance of survival?
20 hours ago · Like
Alex Cannara I've known of, and referred to, Moore for a few years now. Because he's now wisely pro-nuclear doesn't mean everything else he says is automatically correct. So let's hear of your education & experience related to ocean chemistry and life. I confess to still not being expert in this silly interface.
20 hours ago · Like
Rick Maltese Thanks for your comments Alex. Welcome to our discussions. I am curious. What would threaten human survival in the Cretaceous time. Just guessing high temperatures and Dinosaurs?
20 hours ago · Like
Alex Cannara Sure Rick, we descendend from burrowing animals, which is why we also have male red-green colorblindness -- we came out only at night back then. You know of all the various small-large dinosaurs around ready to gobble up littl folks like our ancestors.
19 hours ago · Unlike · 1
Alex Cannara Actually if we go back to the Carboniferous period, after Eric's Devonian, we'd also have to face more than the 18-foot centipedes, but 2-foot dragonflies as well. Not a good environment for humans until the few million years ago when our closest ancestors arose in Africa.
19 hours ago · Unlike · 1
Eric Hanson Alex, why are you talking about something so silly as a return to a Cretaceous climate? Do you have any evidence that the planet is warming so rapidly as to make such a discussion worthwhile? Or is it simply a scare tactic you use? Check out the graph....See More
18 hours ago · Like · Remove Preview
Eric Hanson As you seem to be interested in my education, I have a B.Sc. in Geology. Note that geo-scientists are among the biggest global warming skeptics since we know better than anyone that climate changes all the time and the rate of climate change also chang...See More
The Magnitude and Rate of Past Global Climate Changes - Bluemle - 2009 - Environmental...
onlinelibrary.wiley.com
Bluemle, J. P., Sabel, J. M. and Karlén, W. (2000), The Magnitude and Rate of Pa...See More
16 hours ago · Like · Remove Preview
Rick Maltese OK. No more Eric. You have carried on long enough. You have a rebuttal on a topic that was never asked for. You managed to alienate at least one member. You do get carried away on climate change a lot of the time. It is easy to start a group. How about a group called Fear Itself. Road to Ruin.
9 hours ago via mobile · Like · 1
Alex Cannara Just one fibnnal bit of fact for Eric. Geologist? Good, those who worked for petro companies are easy pickings.
2 hours ago · Like
Alex Cannara So, your Devonian, Eric -- ever read some of the links you've put up about it? Do you understand why having more CO2 in Devonian air might not lower ocean pH much, so fish could exist with skeletons? Do you realize how many periodic extinctions occur...See More
2 hours ago · Like
Rick Maltese Alex enough. You can always message Eric directly.
2 hours ago · Like
Rick Maltese ALERT - I WILL BE DELETING THIS THREAD TOMORROW - IF YOU WISH TO KEEP ANY OF IT YOU HAVE SOME TIME TO COPY THE INFO. Does anybody feel a summary is called for? I don't mind if you copy and paste the info and save it in our files.https://www.facebook.com/groups/energyreality/files/ After copying the thread or edited version of it, click this link - you can click "Create Doc" and paste what you copied
Energy Reality Project
The Energy Reality Project is the result of recognizing the lack of understandin...
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about an hour ago · Edited · Like · Remove Preview
Rick Maltese I think the lesson here is we should not posture. Any belittling or posturing is counter productive.
about an hour ago · Like
Rick Maltese I just renewed the ERP Forumhttp://erp.freeforums.net
Home | Energy Reality Project
erp.freeforums.net
Visit our forum at: erp.freeforums.net
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Alex Cannara Rick, can we get them to make the interface allo wparagraphing, like most forums?
about an hour ago · Like
Rick Maltese You can do paragraphing by using. Shift-Enter
See what I mean?...See More
about an hour ago · Edited · Like
Alex Cannara The marvels of lazy programming! How about asking them to just doi what other sites do -- Enter = CRLF and have a "Submit" button? I'll bet they can do it, if they try!
about an hour ago · Like
Rick Maltese I'm glad you asked the question. It forced me to learn something that has frustrated me in the past.
about an hour ago · Like
Eric Hanson I am happy to debate with you elsewhere Alex Cannara. Post something on my FB page or pick some neutral ground, if you wish.
50 minutes ago · Like
Rick Maltese I created a place for that kind of discussion
erp.freeforums.net/.../climate-change-global...
CLIMATE CHANGE-GLOBAL WARMING-CO2-METHANE-GHGs | Energy Reality Project
erp.freeforums.net
Many of the crowd who visite the nuclear advocate pages are already convinced that Carbon Dioxide is a serious green house gas that will eventually raise the earths temperatures if it is allowed to
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